Worcester Talk
Genealogy => Worcester Irish Genealogy/History => Topic started by: worcmik on April 23, 2005, 01:21:13 PM
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I am always looking for the details of the lives of persons once buried in Tatnuck. And always willing to share what I know about the 1,000 of so names from a "home-made" list of the Tatnuck dead.
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I went to the WPL yesterday for an hour to look at the Naturalizations transcribed in the Massog of Irish people from worcester county. Do you know if more were done than the two sets I saw? How easy would it be to continue with that project? Does anyone know???
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Hi; Where would you find a list of people buried at Tatnuck? I'm looking for a burial site for "Philip Laverty" 1825-1863. supposed to be buried in st. john's, but they don't have a listing for him. so i thought maybe he was buried at tatnuck.
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Would you tell me if you have anyone by the names of McCloskey or Madaus on you list?
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Sorry no McCloskys in Tatnuck (As far as I know). 8 year-old Thomas McClosky died on 11/17/1862. He was born (and died) in Millbury, the son of Peter & Mary McClosky, but he was buried in St. John's as was Margret McClosky, 37 years, born in Ireland and died in Boston on this day; May 19, 1858.
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a Patrick McClosky witnessed a marriage on Nov. 12 1846. He may be the Patrick McClosky that married Nancy Nolan on Feb. 11, 1847, (Margret Mclosky was a witness to that). That couple seems to be in the 1860 Worc. census, given the ages in the census they would have been 27 and 24 respectively, when they married,
Nothing on the other name, anything click?
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Peter(1829-1870 and Mary (1829-1891) McCloskey are who I am looking for. Family interviews have them buried in St. John's. However, the cemetery has no records of their internment. So, someone recommended the Tatnuck Cemetery. Can you give me any more clues on Peter and Mary McCloskey?
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Many, many interments at St. John's Cemetery were not recorded, or the records of them were lost. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason why the existing records include some and not others. For a long time the sexton was Thomas Magennis (1798-1881), he was in charge of the records. The Catholic church in this area was carefull not to share too much marriage info with the civil authorities, and it seems that was true of the death records too.
As for Peter and Mary McClosky did you know about their son Thomas, have you asked the cemetery for info on him or on plots sold on or shortly after the date of his death? Did you know they were in Millbury? Have you checked the vitals out there? There may be other, earlier, deaths in the family, and the plot may have been purchased then. The cemetery is large,but knowing when they first needed a plot would narrow down a walking search. look forward to your next post, J
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Hi,
Any chance you would have a record for a Michael Cronin born 1842 here in Killarney, Co Kerry, Ireland. According to family interviews was alive in Worcester, MA in 1911. No knowledge if he died in Worcester, MA. Any help would be great
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Over 900. That is what my son and I came up with when looking for the 2000 names that should make up a full list of the people that were buried in Tatnuck. There are >100 that have no location of internment. Guesses can be made but I included them all in the database. With another group it is hard to tell what was ment by the notation in the "place of internment" column, they are all there too. I would say there are 850 people positivly identified as Tatnuck dead. This is 10 times the number that O'Flynn recorded. A good start for some future history buff. John
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Folks,
Somewhere in a posting or an email, I wrote that Arcadia Publishing's books contain many old photos that supplement text on a historical subject. I commented that new photos of old "Tatnuck" stones might attract their interest, but that it would be difficult to tract them down. There were about 80 stones still standing in Tatnuck in 1876, according to Richard O'Flynn's transcriptions. Some of them now stand (or lay) at St. John's, others may have been moved to other cemeteries. In fact, some have found their way to St. Bridget's Cemetery in Millbury. Today I looked a one? some? (It was an unplanned, cold visit, so I did not take notes.) Position and age of the monuments indicate there are several that were at Tatnuck. An epitaphs confirm at least one was.
I have entered an active phase of this hobby (longer days? up-comming St. Pat's day?) and I will be looking at other cemeteries in the future. I would love to see this search become a group effort. Interested people could investigate a particular Catholic cemetery that was around in 1907, find out if records exist on the placement of stones, learn if there was an initial sale of plots at the establishment of the cemetery, look for the old stones (They might be paired with an other on one plot, or oddly placed between rows, or bear an epitaph that notes a date of death that pre-dates the establishment of the cemetery.) take notes and even the photos. Photos and other work would be credited to the individuals that contribute. The exact form the end product will take is not assured. Book publishing costs money, and there is little intrest in this subject, but if nothing else a work book could be created, or a webpage... whatever.
I am also looking to create a poster with the known Tatnuck monuments pictured, again not of wide interest, but a much more manageable project. That is to say, I can handle that much work (if I don't try to be all-inclusive), a larger project would require other "volunteers."
If you can only help by posting the name and est. date of the Catholic Cemetery in your little part of Worc. County that would be a start. Post any "replies" to this post for now, if this thing grows we can start a new subject Tatnuck Cemetery Project, or some such thing.
I don't have any ancestors involved in the move, but the 100th anniversary of the removal of 2000 of the area's early Catholic settlers is next year, and I would like to see something ready by then. Then I can put this subject away for awhile, take-on another task.
John
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The attempt to find the grave stones that once stood at Tatnuck Burial Ground is... well, it's not going well. I compaired the 83 or so transcriptions from O'Flynn's 1876 trips to Merski, et al.'s 2004 St. John's Placenames Transcription project. O'Flynn has 28 stones bearing the 'native of...' info, none of them were spotted by the 2004 team. So, were some just that much more worn, or were some located outside the 2004 search area?
Wouldn't we expect some of those stones to have been relocated to St. John's. I know that there were families that used Tatnuck when that was the only place nearby and bought a plot at St. John's Cemetery on Sept. 19, 1847, the day of the plot lottery, the first day plots were for sale, months before the supposed first burials there. Some of them or others must have moved the stones early on. Before O'Flynn 1876. Some may have paid for reinterrment of the loved ones By the end of the century, others like the relitives of the 83 or so must have known about the impending move to St. John's, and, even if they chose not to claim the remains and bring them to St. John's, claimed the stone, you would think.
But no. Not any indication of that, yet.
There are a few old dates (pre-the establishment of St. John's Cemetery) on Stones that now stand in St. John's, but they appear to have been etched into the existing stone as a memorial to the loved-one, the dates may have come from an old damaged stone (now gone?), as sometimes the date is off from what O'Flynn saw. Just the year of the date, and the epitaths are different.
It is possible that the stone in St. Brigid's Cemetery, in Millbury, is also a memorial to someone that was never under that stone.
I will let this all sink in, keep an eye out, but I think there is another project I should start. It might contribute some info that will make the Tatnuck List project grow. That might make the Tatnuck Headstones project easier.
And I was so eager to find all these Tatnuck stones just days ago, John
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I'm thinking that families may have updated their burial plot with a new stone. I know for a fact there were one or two I came across that had new stones that gave no info about earlier burials, but found the transcription from O'Flynn that has earlier burials. Imagine a family who had a stone that was all worn out because it was marble or limestone that was worn away from the elements...they might not have even known who was in the grave. The other approach is that they might replace the stone because "we know great grandma Nellie Sullivan is there and that's enough"
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I agree with you Merski, taking it a step further, I would guess that many of the old stones were disposed of. O'Flynn wrote of one of the finest stones was six feet tall, marble, etc., but most were probably not works of art. It's likely that they looked like the two that are on the St. John's Plot that holds the 2000 or so Tatnuck remains. Kinda thin, flat rectangles; most were probably more broken than Hugh Cown's and Charles Dailey's.
I was a bit slow to recognize the "new" stones as new, now I can see that my couple of most-likely candidates for being Tatnuck stones, are in fact, not.
What of the nicest of them? Would a chunk of cut marble be re-worked? Even re-sold? O'Flynn claims it was the Flemming monument that was the finest in Tatnuck in 1876. He described the stone as having a lamb, laying down, with a cross on its right shoulder. The Fogerty monument at St. John's seems to fit the description. I am willing to write it off as a mistake on O'Flynn's part(not the first one found), but ... the matter should be researched. If it was the Fogerty monument all along, we have found a Tatnuck stone (and another O'Flynn mistake). If it is the same stone, with new epitaphs and base, when/how did it become a Fogerty stone? (and we have found a Tatnuck stone). If it is not the same piece of marble, where is the monument described by O'Flynn? Does anyone really care?
These are the questions that keep me up at night,
John
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Another reply from Worcmic, this time to get the word out that the anniversary of the Tatnuck Burial Ground move is next year. There is talk of some ceremony. If the subject interests you, reply to this post and offer to help in some way, even if it is just to say you will try to attend something if something is planned.
I know it is only summer '06 but things move slowly on this board.
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I would want to be there. Do you know if the transcription that O'flynn made of the old tatnuck cemetery has ever been published? Perhaps that could be a project to commemorate it. Holy Cross library, a couple of students and us?????
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That's the spirit! I am sure things will need to be worked on. Such as the O'Flynn list, a history of the cemetery, related subjects, etc. We will keep thing moving, but first we need to start. More to follow in this space.
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John,
I would be willing to help out in some way as my schedule permits. It's the least I can do after all of the assistance you and the rest of the group have given me.
BVIrish
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When is the anniversary of Tatnuck cemetary? At the very least, I think if we could read off the inscriptions transcribed by O'Flynn at say, Hibernian Hall, so these irish will not be forgotten. What about it John?
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just wasted an hour compiling a reply.
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What was lost is gone. I will give you a short version of what was a very eliquent responce to the question about how we will mark the 100th year anniversary of the move.
Yes we should meet at the Worc. Public Library soon (any problems with an early eve. on one of the days the library is open late?) to discuss this. By meeting there we can see some of the resources that are being tapped and there can be a physical exchange of data. Not everyone that wants to be involved vists WorcesterTalk.com. I do have a large database of the Tatnuck dead. I have asked Worc. Public Library if they want to host it on their website. If they don't I will make sure it gets out there anyway. I will release it to coinside with some sort of presentation, the Hibernians are interested in hosting these sort of presentations. Got to go. sorry about the choppy reply, John
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I have finished transcribing and sorting. The latest project was transcribing Catholic births recorded in Worc. for mid 1844 to end of 1849. 379 entries, many of them I recognized from having transcribed their deaths. I "knew" many of the parents too, as I have transcribed some 1000 Catholic marriages.
I've made a "Tatnuck" file that has about 980 entries. Over 850 are strongly assumed to be Tatnuck burials. The rest are "ours" but the records are not clear as to their interrment location. Still, that is over 10 times the number O'Flynn told us about. I've asked Nancy at Worc. Public Library if they would like to host it on their website. She hadn't asked the webmaster last time I checked. If they don't want it, or if they don't respond to my email (I have not sent it yet) then I will pursue another venue. I want what is compiled out there before St. Patrick's Day.
The parade is in a week. I hope a few from this site can meet me in Worc. for and/or after the parade. Plenty of corned beef and cabbage at a get together planned for the end of the parade.. The "send this member a message" section of the member profile is the best way to communicate off-list. To send me a message to rsvp to the affermitive and to get directions. double click on my screen name (highlighted in blue) to get to my profile page. Post here if You are having trouble contacting me. John
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Well, the parade has come and gone and there is progress on the Tatnuck Cemetery project. I was graciously provided with about 150 names (some w/ ages, most with dates of death, all with "owner of plot") by St. John's Cemetery. They are the oldest burials "on record." To get an idea of just how much information is missing from their records consider this: There were 130 plus burials at Tatnuck in the year 1847 and records for only 150 burials at St. John's from 1848 through 1864. Anyway, I was able to find a few of the "possible Tatnuck burial" in the St. John's burial records, so, my Tatnuck l;list is a little shorter and a little more accurate. I entered the 150 St. John's burials (the ones I didn't already have) to the master database.
The Worc. Public Library passed on hosting the Tatnuck database on-line, Worcester Historical Museum has shown some interest. I wanted to get that out to the web early so it could attract interest, but my guy at WPI is busy with his school work. He will, when he has time, work on a format that would allow the database to grow as new information is discovered. In any event it will be available by November.
Which brings me to.. On November 1st, All Saints' Day, there will be a PowerPoint presentation about the Tatnuck Burial Ground at the Ancient Order of Hibernians' hall, Fiddler's Green Temple St. Worcester. Information for the presentation will be gathered from many sources (you folks) and assembled as a sideshow and discussion. To date the PowerPoint presentation is a rough collection of ideas for slides and text without a good outline. I can't let my interest in this wane until a presentation is prepared, as the date is booked and if there is nothing to present, the good name of armature historian's and History buffs everywhere will suffer.
some points of discussion:
I have some info on where they were living here in Worc. Co. A look at where they were from in Ireland might be right up Merski's alley, if she has time. Railroad and other Accidental causes of death is being looked into by BVIrish, as time allows. The controversy surrounding the move (Did the diocese do enough to meet the conditions placed upon it by the state in granting approval of the diocese's petition to move the remains?) has been written about by OFlynn, Owen Murphy, and John Patrick McGinn, their work and origanal sources will be quoted and credited by another volunteer. (I was able to contact Owen Murphy; he's supportive and his contribution, his paper, as well as consultations, is much appreciated.) My son (and I) have a report on the most common cause of death in the late 1840's. Another couple have agreed to record themselves reading the poetry from the epitaphs O'Flynn collected. There is plenty to cover, lots to do.
Any suggestions? Offers to help? Thoughts? John
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A few posts back in this subject heading "Tatnuck Cemetery" we contemplated what became of the old Tatnuck grave markers, and in the subject heading " Tatnuck Cemetery O'flynns work" we see that not all of the markers were stone... I have been wondering "Why were there only 83 or so legible markers in 1876, when Richard O'Flynn and his son collected epitaphs?" There were few burials there by then, so most of the 2000 that were moved in 1907 were there in 1876. O'Flynn says that the place had been vandalized and neglected, most of the markers were broken and that he recorded only the ones he could read. That leaves us to wonder if there were many broken monuments for every legible one, or many unmarked graves. Little of both, I suppose.
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One possability is that some markers were retrieved by the families, some may have done it before 1876. There is a stone in St. Johns that memorialized the six month-old daughter of John and Bridget Fay. This young Ellen Fay died just before the lottery that was held to decide in what order people would choose their plots at the "new" cemetery (St. John's); Nov. 19, 1847. I doubt anyone was buried there so early, so Ellen was likely buried in Tatnuck. Her mom died in the 1870s, dad in 1881; I don't think they went to Tatnuck but they could have. In any event the stones are in St. John's now. Ellen's is repaired, having been broken. If her stone was in Tatnuck in 1876 it was not transcribed by the O'Flynns. It could have been face down in the dirt, or it could have already been moved to St. John's. I need to find out when Bridget died just before O'Flynn's transcription work or just after, if before then with her death John may have bought a St. John's plot and moved Ellen's stone (but probably not Ellen) to St. Johns. If she died after 1876 then ...
Since there is no record of the adult Fays interment, and not "date of purchase" on the plot card, we don't have a clear answer. There is a strong possability that at least one of the three stones on the Fay's St. John's plot once stood at Tatnuck. John
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One fellow Jerry Collins named his son "Tatnuck" born on (my favorite day) Feb. 20, 1850. Jerry and his wife Elizabeth lived on Winter St. There is a simmilar couple, living on Winter Ct.: Eliza and James, name their daughter "Caty" in 1855. They may be one couple but the records are subject to transcribtion errors. What ever Mr. Collins first name was, bless him for naming a son "Tatnuck."
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Sometimes the headstone will list a family name(s) but not all that are buried in there. The plot card will show all that are buried in that particular lot. Sometimes you just have to check the plot card. I've been told some one wasn't buried in St. John's but they were, there was just no headstone for them. They were in a family plot and only listed on the card.
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I was interested in the presentation that was given in Nov, 2007, on the Tatnuck Cemetary in Worcester. I had read Richard O'Flynn's article some years ago, and wondered where exactly the cemetary was. It seems to be near Newton Square, but has anyone located it precisely?
Let me know if I have the correct address.
forwarded from Margo
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The area is bounded by Pleasant St., Howland Terrace, Franconia St. and Monroe Ave. 864 feet west of the intersection of Pleasant and Highland St. on the south side of Pleasant St. and extends along said street 600 feet. It is generally oval in shape and contains about 1 and one half acres. It was purchased August 6, 1835 by the Right Reverend Benedict J. Fenwick for the sum of $75.00 of Rejoice Newton. The first known interment recorded being Worc. Co. Reg. deeds book 309. p. 653. some of this is a direct quote from O'Flynn.